User:Billw58/Working with Audio Tracks

Peter 3Dec11: There seem to be two classes of information here. The first two entries "The Waveform Display" and "Audio Tracks" do seem rightly to belong to "Understanding Audacity". But the remaining five entries are about using Audacity rather than just understanding the basics amd thus possibly would reside more correctly under "Tutorials". If we did move them to tutorials then I would still support using this page but with the first two entries "The Waveform Display" and "Audio Tracks" removed (leaving these in "Understanding Audacity" - I agree with an earlier comment by Bill that Audio Tracks deserves a duplicate entry under "Understanding Audacity" in addition to its current entry in the "Reference" section under "Project Window". Thanks again for all the work and thought!
 * Bill 03Dec11: Peter, see my comments on the Audio Tracks page. Perhaps this page could be the "read more" page linked to at the end of the Audio Tracks page, and thus would lose the first two sections and possibly the "Mixing" section. Under that scheme, the "Understanding Audacity" section of the front page might look like this:
 * Digital Audio
 * What is an Audacity Project?
 * Audacity Setup and Configuration
 * Playing and Recording
 * Audacity Waveform
 * Audio Tracks
 * Working with Audio Tracks
 * Mixing Audio Tracks
 * Undo, Redo and History
 * Peter 3Dec11: Yup,that menu structure for "Understanding Audacity" would work well for me. And yes I would support your idea of linking to this page from the end of Audio Tracks page.  Also, on third thoughts, I agree with you about not shunting this over to tutorials.
 * Gale 04Dec11:

I totally agree about not modifying tutorials in any of this. For sure, exclude "The Waveform Display" and "Audio Tracks" here. In the resulting list of links in Understanding Audacity, I would expect Audio Tracks to precede Audacity Waveform.

The intention of Understanding Audacity as I see it was "semi-tutorial" - an overview/pulling together/re-ordering/expansion of topics that must necessarily be separated and kept non-elaborate in the Reference.

Personally I wouldn't rearrange things as proposed, but I definitely don't object to anything, with the exception that I strongly think Audio Tracks should allude to "splitting and joining" and have an image of left and right tracks, even at risk of duplicating User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks. We can't assume people will dig into "Understanding Audacity". We know split/join is missed/misunderstood. We already have the topic duplicated at Track Drop-Down Menu. If we go ahead with having "advanced" examples and images for it at User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks, let's consider if the Track Drop-Down Menu text needs trimming.

Disadvantages I see of what Bill proposes/ leaving other things unchanged:
 * "Default Waveform view" in Audacity Waveform is a near duplication of the first part of Audio Tracks; Both Waveform views in Audacity Waveform duplicate the same sections in Track Drop-Down Menu.
 * Tracks, clips and waveforms seem pretty interlinked features to me - a track is a clip is in the waveform. There may be dangers in splitting.
 * User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks may become harder to find/ seem more of a fringe topic than it is.
 * Linking to Audio Tracks as a primary section when it is not in Understanding Audacity confuses me.
 * "Working with Audio Tracks" (this page) has no images and reads like the intro to a dissertation to me at the moment. Boring. Is it relevant, asks user? Maybe this could be ameliorated by including images or content from User:Billw58/Channels Tracks and Clips. I don't like that page as a standalone.

How I would do it if it was me: Digital Audio What is an Audacity Project? Audacity Setup and Configuration Playing and Recording Mixing Audio Tracks Audacity Selection Audacity Tracks and Clips Sync-Locked Tracks Undo, Redo and History Zooming I guess much of this boils down to my preference to keep together things that belong together. I accept length as the price as I personally get confused by broken up sections > Next > Next > Next. If we vote for Bill's scheme, perhaps we can mitigate such reservations as I have. I have not reviewed content in detail but it is probably good enough for Beta. We can tweak definitively when the structure is agreed. Gale, thanks for your detailed feedback! Digital Audio What is an Audacity Project? Audacity Setup and Configuration Playing and Recording Audacity Waveform [rename link (not page) to "The Waveform Display"?] Audacity Selection [rename to "Selecting Audio"?] Audacity Tracks and Clips [rename to "Clips - separate audio regions within a track"?] Splitting and Joining (stereo?) Tracks Sync-Lock Tracks Mixing Audio Tracks Zooming Undo, Redo and History
 * Audio Tracks loses the detailed stuff about splitting and joining but it should allude to it and should show a mono track and a left/right split from stereo.
 * Audacity Tracks and Clips remains. The Tracks content has stuff from Audacity Waveform and User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks. The content should prominently reference Audacity Selection and Sync-Locked Tracks, definitely with an example of a Sync-Lock scenario. Clips content is as we have now.
 * This has the advantage of having an integrated page with everything imaged and important subsidiary pages linked to and exampled. It almost is "Working with Audio Tracks".
 * The obvious disadvantage is the length. Still I reckon it would be at least four scrolls less than the Edit Menu. To reduce the length, possibly the meat of Splitting/Joining could go to Track Drop-Down Menu - that does have a case IMO. Length could be ameliorated by an intelligent TOC like in Edit Menu.
 * A very minor disadvantage is that we reduce the number of links in Understanding Audacity by one instead of two - my scheme gives:
 * Bill04Dec11:
 * I agree that this page looks bare and the user has no encouragement (other than the desire to learn how to use Audacity) to follow the links provided. It was an experiment that didn't work and we can discard it.
 * I would not mind putting all of User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks into Track Drop-Down Menu (but see below). I'd rather put it there than in Audacity Tracks and Clips. I'd like to keep Audio Tracks as a pure "reference" page and thus not get into the options in the Track Drop-Down Menu on that page. My objection to putting details of split/join tracks on the Audacity Tracks and Clips page is based on the duplication of the terms "split" and "join". We use them to mean two different things in two contexts. We "split" a track into clips, but we also "split" a stereo track into its component channels. I think it would be confusing to talk about these two different operations on the same page. OTOH that might be an opportunity to highlight this duplication in terminology.
 * I think we could lose Audacity Waveform and integrate some of the content of that page into Audio Tracks in the Display section of that page, thus removing some duplication of content and losing one link in the "sea" under "Understanding Audacity". Acc/to Peter there would be 25 or so links to change.
 * Audacity Tracks and Clips would talk exclusively about clips, and would look more like Talk:Audacity Tracks and Clips, possibly with the "Channels, Tracks and Clips" section restored. User:Billw58/Channels Tracks and Clips can be discarded.
 * The disadvantage to this, in my mind, is that splitting and joining tracks ends up in the Reference section rather than the Understanding section (inside of Track Drop-Down Menu). Having its own page does not necessarily imply that it is a fringe topic, but instead an important one that deserves its own page. If it had its own page we could link to it from both Audio Tracks and Track Drop-Down Menu. Peter, I know, would like to have a link in the "Advanced Topics" section for splitting and joining tracks.
 * So my "compromise" proposal is this:
 * User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks becomes a manual page
 * Audio Tracks "alludes" to splitting and joining tracks and links to Splitting and Joining Tracks. I'd rather not have images of splitting and joining on the Audio Tracks page but if we do have them I'd make special smaller ones so they did not break up the page too much.
 * Audacity Waveform is integrated into Audio Tracks avoiding duplication but still getting the points across about peak/RMS, dB view and showing clipping - but I'd remove the section on "avoiding and repairing clipping" which I think is swinging toward the "tutorial" side of the pendulum and should not be on a Reference page - a link to appropriate pages (e.g. setting levels, clip fix effect) in a note div might be appropriate and sufficient.
 * Track Drop-Down Menu links to Splitting and Joining Tracks but does not have images.
 * Audacity Tracks and Clips is about clips exclusively
 * Splitting and Joining Tracks appears as a link in the "Advanced Topics" section.
 * Peter 5Dec11: I am *strongly* opposed to losing Audacity Waveform and burying it in Audio Tracks. For a start it makes Audio Tracks too long in my view leading to TLDR. Furthermore casting my mind back I seem to remember that we created Audacity Waveform only failrly recently this summer in response to some forum postings (see the ed not at the top of the page:  " .. following a recent posting on the forum asking what the waveform display indicates, I agree with the poster that this is currently poorly documented in the manual (and the Wiki)." ).  And note that this page is already linked to from Audio Tracks.
 * Peter 5Dec11: I support the remainder of Bill's compromise proposal.
 * Bill 05Dec11: Please see User:Billw58/Audio_Tracks for how Audio Tracks might look with the waveform stuff integrated into it.
 * We're all three pulling in different directions and we risk getting log-jammed here. Gale and I would like to integrate Audacity Waveform into Audio Tracks (me) or into Audacity Tracks and Clips (Gale) but Peter is opposed. Peter and I would like a separate page for Splitting and Joining Tracks but Gale is opposed. Gale would prefer that Audacity Tracks and Clips includes what its title implies and thus would include content from Audacity Waveform and User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks whereas I would like that page to be about clips and nothing else. Gale doesn't mind length and prefers to keep related information together on one page. Peter is concerned about TLDR and prefers short punchy pages. Is that a fair precis?
 * Please see User:Billw58/Tracks_and_Clips showing what Audacity Tracks and Clips would look like with Gale's content (as I understand it).
 * Peter 5Dec11: Yup I think you have given a fair precis there Bill. I've had a look at your new page User:Billw58/Tracks_and_Clips and I *really* don't think that the waveform material belongs in there.  I could live with Audacity Waveform integrated into Audio Tracks - but I would still prefer to have it remaining free-standing for the reasons previously given (and BTW there appear to be 52 existing pages that have links to Audacity Waveform).  However, to free the logjam I will live with the majority decision.
 * Bill 05Dec11: Note how I have to dance around the term "split" on that page - it's the main reason I think those topics (Split Stereo Track versus Edit > Split et al) should be on separate pages. That page is now very long. I'd rather have a "sea of links" under "Understanding Audacity" than count on a user scrolling that page to get to the "clips" section. On the Edit Menu page we had no choice; here we do.
 * Peter 5Dec11: "Note how I have to dance around the term "split" on that page - it's the main reason I think those topics (Split Stereo Track versus Edit > Split et al) should be on separate pages." +1 to that.
 * Peter 5Dec11: Personally I think we are far from having too many links of the main/front page - it is effectively the "table of contents" for the manual - and we did spend a lot of time last year making it more readable, accessible and user-friendly. It is a page that readers should be examining to find a topic relevant to their needs. I would rather have more links there than bury to much stuff further down as sub-topics.
 * Bill 05Dec11: Code and string (that includes the manual) freeze has been called for 23:59 GMT Wed Dec 7 for the 1.3.14-beta release. I see no reason to attempt to sort this out in the next 20 hours, so I propose that we go with what exists in the manual for now.
 * Gale 06 Dec11: +1. I think we always knew there was a problem to some extent here so we may as well take time to get it as right as we can. The other "problem" is probably Project Window / Tracks / Diagram of Audacity. A few points for now:
 * I am not strongly opposed to a separate page for Splitting and Joining Tracks. But the Splitting and Joining distinction can easily be solved in Audacity Tracks and Clips by referring to it as "Splitting and Joining Stereo Tracks" as per Track Drop-Down Menu.
 * Don't know if Ed has views, but I was always slightly uncomfortable with Audacity Waveform but couldn't put my finger on it before now. My first reaction is that quite possibly its content (at least the reference-like RMS stuff) is better in Audio Tracks than Audacity Tracks and Clips. We aren't throwing out any unique content, and an anchor link can be provided. Note that people may read other stuff if they are on a larger page.
 * No need to worry about scrolling down a long Audacity Tracks and Clips page if the page makes clear that clips stuff is lower down and has an anchor link.
 * If the tracks stuff is largely removed then I think definitions of tracks and clips must be retained. Maybe Diagram of Audacity and even an image in Audio Tracks should have a clip in it? Channels definitions should probably be retained and could provide an image and link to the Splitting and Joining (Stereo) tracks content elsewhere.
 * Yes, Splitting and Joining (Stereo) Tracks can have a link in the "Advanced Topics" section if it ends up as a separate page.
 * I think what we are mostly weighing up is where information about tracks goes and how much is semi-tutorial and how much reference, and needing to be mindful that people may not read both Audio Tracks and whatever we have for "Tracks and Clips".
 * As another comment, I worry if a link that said "Clips" in "Understanding Audacity" would look important/get high readership...
 * Peter 6Dec11: "I see no reason to attempt to sort this out in the next 20 hours, so I propose that we go with what exists in the manual for now." +1 (so taking a breather from the manual till 1.3.14 is out the door) BTW it is just not for the benefit of normal readers of the manual that  prefer shorter punchier articles in the manual. As a forum elf I find it much easier to find the relevant point for a poster by looking through the main page's so-called "sea of links" rather than having to guess/remember which article in the manual might be relevant and then searching within that to find the particularly relevant div id to link to.  And remember that on most pages we deliberately suppress the TOC so there is usually no indexing on the longer pages to help with this, seeing what is to come on the page.  Well that's my 2c for today - signing off till 1.3.15 ...
 * Bill 15Dec11: If there are no strong objections I will implement the "small pages" version of this proposal. My thought is that we won't know how well it works until we see it in action. We can always tweak it, combine pages, or whatever once we see what it looks like. I would implement:
 * Audacity Waveform would be edited with my new images from User:Billw58/Audio_Tracks, with the 'clipping' section pared down.`
 * User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks would go on a new manual page Splitting and Joining Tracks or Splitting and Joining Stereo Tracks (any preference?)
 * Audacity Tracks and Clips would be about clips only
 * Audio Tracks would talk briefly about splitting and joining. I would make two new smaller images for that section and link to Splitting and Joining Tracks
 * Track Drop-Down Menu would have a link to Splitting and Joining Tracks
 * I'm not convinced that Slitting and Joining Tracks belongs under "Advanced Topics", and if it does, perhaps so does Sync-Lock Tracks
 * I'm not sure where the definitions of channels, tracks and clips belongs, but probably on Audio Tracks or Audacity Tracks and Clips so I'll put it on both pages and we can decide later where it should stay.
 * The order of items in Understanding Audacity would change to:
 * Peter 15Dec11: No objections from me - I agree with you Bill that we need to see it "in the flesh" to make further judgements and tweaks. Maybe we should archive this long discussion to the talk page?
 * Bill 16Dec11: Hope I haven't jumped the gun, but I went ahead and did it. Easy enough to revert and tweak, I figure. :)

Working with Audio Tracks
It is likely that most of the work you will be doing with Audacity will involve recording, editing and otherwise manipulating audio tracks. The following pages give information about specific aspects of audio tracks and how to use the tools that Audacity provides.

Pretend these sections do not exist!''
 * Peter 3Dec11: Yes, this page works much better for me without these two sections. Try logging out and then reading the page so you don't see the editormotes.''

The Waveform Display
Audacity Waveform shows how Audacity displays audio waveforms in an audio track.

Audio Tracks
Audio Tracks gives details on what is displayed in an audio track and the controls associated with an audio track.

Audio Selection
Audacity Selection talks about the special characteristics of audio selection, the methods for selecting audio in a track and the features Audacity provides to help you make exactly the selection you need.

Splitting and Joining Tracks
User:Billw58/Splitting_and_Joining_Tracks shows how to use commands in the Track Drop-Down Menu to split a stereo track into two single-channel tracks and how to join two single-channel tracks into a one stereo track.

Clips
Audacity Tracks and Clips introduces the concept of clips within an audio track and how to create, merge and move clips.

Sync-Locked Tracks
Sync-Locked Tracks describes this feature which allows you to keep tracks in sync with each other when performing editing operations on one track.

Zooming
Zooming explains how to zoom in and out to see less or more of the audio waveform.